leader of north korea, kim jong il. they're expected to return home on a plane with former president clinton today. >> read the bill, read the bill -- neil: welcome, everybody. they ran, they rave, not about iran, but you. robert gibbs offering this unique take on those not smitten. "and astroturf nature of grass- roots lobbying, which is largely the term for, this manufacturer anchor." if prompted this later clarification. >> i am not calling all of it. it is no doubt that there is some of it. neil: my next guest is furious.

right now, they are here. they are joining us now from austin, texas. welcome to both of you. shelley, to you first. did these clarifications make you feel any better? >> i do not know if they made me feel better. my feeling is most of the people in austin that came out came out because they just wanted to talk to the congressman. we were not coerced by republicans or libertarians. we came out on our own because we have real concerns about the bill. neil: he seemed to be saying that a lot of these protests were organized -- maybe not you, but people like you were put up to it. >> no, as a matter of fact, a lot of people went down there just because they were just frustrated with the fact that they are not listening to the

300 million of laws. they're not paying attention. there were a lot of people who showed up. the room was just overwhelmed. people are frustrated. as a matter of fact, i do not know of anyone who is being told to organize to be there. i did not hear that at all neil: i want to review something that bill clinton had been emailing lately is to supporters on this whole health care debate. he says, "just as i did in 1993, president obama has run into a buzz saw of special interest opposition to his top domestic policy priority, health-care reform." he is more or less saying that -- he is facing off against the most powerful special interests in washington who want to -- who launched a furious campaign to preserve the status quo.

simply put, they are at it again. he is more or less saying once tried, try it again. what do you make of it? >> that is not true. it is not true in my case. it is not true of anybody that i know. dennis is right. you call them, you write them, you do not feel like they are getting through. what i would like to do is challenged by representative to have a real town hall meeting in austin there are so many people that have concerns about the health care bill. we need to talk to him and he needs to talk to us have a real town hall meeting and we will all come. neil: nevertheless, bill clinton then and president obama now saying that these protests do not reflect american sentiment.

what do you think about that, that more americans are in favor of this than these crowds would seem to indicate? what do you make of that? >> to may, i just think that the fact that we are just trying to ram all of this stuff through without even discussing it, much less being able to justify the cost of all this stuff, we're already seeing that the things that are being put out there, how are we going to pay for those things -- we are throwing more stuff added. there is no way to pay for all of this stuff unless you just dilute the system. all we want is to yell. how about we discussed this and wade through it? why is there such a rush to push this through right away? we never did this before with anything. i know in the past, senator obama has said that.

they said, the republicans are pushing it through before we can analyze it. just take your time and wait it out. neil: do you feel that the white house or those who are pushing health care are dismissing you and dennis as they did the tea party protesters? >> it sounds like that. i want them to know that the american people have a great concern about what is going on. we're trying to express that concern. that is our right as americans. i think they should be listening to us. there are people who support the bill. there are people like me who are really opposed to this government health care takeover bi. i think they should be receptive. neil: when you said the government health care takeover, that is not their intention at

all, you will be able to keep health plan your hand. that is their take on this, that you have been hoodwinked. what do you think of that? >> i disagree. i have read the entire plan. i am against a public auction. the public option will destroy the private health care industry in our country. it is a move toward a single pair universal health-care system. barney frank said so. i am really against that. i do not want my health care to look like canada. i do not want it to look like great britain. we have problems, but let us address those problems, but not with this legislation. neil: do you think that no deal is better than a crippled deal like this? you are not biting -- not by

either of it. >> i do not think so. to make, there is no reason to be pushing this through right now. i think the eventual agenda is to eliminate the private industry. let's take our time. let's see where we go. i was always raised a person -- my dad always said [insert anecdote] if you do not afford something, you cannot get it. we have got into the point where we cannot afford stuff. this is just insane. neil: i want to thank you. i understand it is your birthday. i am very appreciative that you spend your time with me. >> thank you for having me. neil: is it any wonder -- that

is how long it has been since the house bill on health care first emerged. we really do not know what is and it. why is that? they are not yet releasing it. my next guest wants it posted online pronto. you obviously voted on something on that in committee. let's see it. you are not seeing it. when not? >> yesterday morning, i called of a committee to ask because i wanted to write some things about the bill and i wanted to make sure that i had the most complete version in front of me. i was told right off the bat that it might not be available until after the august recess is over. neil: these guys who voted on it in the committee, what did they vote on? >> what they voted on was, they voted on a series of amendments.

there were more than 50 different amendments. something like 150 pages of amendments. they voted on the amendments and then they voted on the final bill. we can at least assume that because they went through and voted on these amendments, the rest of us do not even know what is changed about the bill. we can surmise and we can guess, but it would be nice to have a copy of the bill but the house is going to vote on when members go home so that people can ask, i know what is in this bill now. are you going to vote for it or not? we should know what is in the final bill. the final bill has been voted out of committee. neil: is the argument that there could be other bills in the house? >> this is the one that is going to be voted on in the house. in the senate, you have a situation more like that where the health committee and pass their bill out of committee three weeks ago on july 15. we have not seen that bill either.

there is no canonical texts of that bill. there is no budget estimate of that bill. the republican staff on the health committee has been trying to get that one out as well. i really think that congressman do not like the idea of going home in august and having people ask them questions about it. neil: i do not know what is more offensive, not showing the bill, or telling them, i am sorry it is not out there. >> that may well be the case. you have a bill that is going to affect a lot of people. you could see how angry people are. every single person in america is it least going to be affected a little bit by this. some people's health care plans could be drastically changed by it. neil: i thought that was all manufactured rage. i guess it is legitimate. >> i'm not going to say that there is no such thing as manufactured rage. i think people are very concerned about what is going to

do. when president obama two weeks ago gave his press conference in the white house, he did not address anyone's legitimate concerns. neil: just get it out there and let people decide. david, well put. good luck. meanwhile, writing of republicans, chuck just chucked the gop on health care. what if i told you the president does not need to sign off on another $2 billion? i was always going

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neil: gop you? who needs republicans? apparently, not all the democrats, at least not to pass

health care. senator chuck schumer is a bit democrats can use an old parliament terry maneuvered to get it through even if they do not have bipartisan support to get it through. a democratic strategist says what they should do. it is good to have you back. >> how are you? neil: i guess a the bloom is off the bipartisan rose. >> i'm not sure the way you describe my position was 100% accurate. i take a pragmatic approach to bipartisanship. i think president obama said it will listen to your idea. if the idea is to delay and weaken a health-care bill that does not solve the health-care crisis that we clearly face in this country, i am not sure bipartisanship is all that it is cracked up to be. i think that is the perspective that a lot of democrats and a lot of americans -- neil: making cozy with

republicans is the least of democrats'problem started the a blue dog members who are just not buying this thing. >> i do not think it is a question of not buying it. i'd think it is important, i think almost everyone recognizes except something grass-roots groups and some republicans that we clearly face a health care crisis that has to be dealt with. neil: stop yourself right there. the last couple of people i had on who were against this, they were not fake grass roots guys. they were concerned didst -- they were concerned citizens. >> i also know that those town hall disruptions are not people having a conversation. that is people screaming to stop the conversation. neil: let's say they are coordinating this at dozens of of events across the country. they are that the well- organized? >> if i was reading a memo by one of the groups that had the tactics that they used in the town halls laid out in terms of

yelling and screaming -- i think this is an important debate. i understand that people have passions on all sides and we -- we should have an honest and clear debate about what this issue is and how to solve it. the notion that we should do nothing is ridiculous. republicans have not come up with one single new proposal. neil: let's go to these protests. you say that we want to encourage bipartisanship on this. if they ask a critical question, i do their part of a manufactured cobol or they are ignorant. >> you cannot have a town hall of 150 people when you have 30 people screaming and disrupting that town hall and expect to have a real conversation and a discussion and a debate about the necessity. neil: a lot of these people are very angry. at the wisconsin event, they were not even allowed

microphones to relate that anchor. >> and do you know who is even angrier? the hundreds of millions of americans that are suffering under this current health-care prices. neil: hundreds of millions of americans? would you are doing is the very thing that these people are protesting about. they are not saying they're against health care. they say that they're against this version of health care. the version that you supply and the administration supplies seems to be your way or the highway. >> i disagree with that. anwe have been talking about health care in this country for decades. we have not dealt with the crisis. it has become both a competitive disadvantage for our businesses and corporations as well as a national disadvantaged for individuals. the notion that we cannot do nothing -- neil: you do not understand this there are other solutions

you and i might differ on fixing health care. that does not mean that we do not disagree that health care should be fixed. if someone says we do not like your approach because it seems too draconian, -- they are immediately shot down as not. the ones who are against this are suddenly being the selfish sob's. >> if they want to have a discussion about it, that is fine. the notion that you were going to go to a town hall and scream at a member of congress or scream at a cabinet official who is trying to explain to you their policy and you expect that there is going to be reasonable debate or discussion, this is a manufactured -- [i dunno] neil: the people are talking to them. can you guarantee to me that the

government will not take over everything? some of them say, we cannot guarantee that right now. i know you do not like to soil yourself with the masses, but a lot of these people are saying, cool it. >> with all due respect, these people are not reflective of the masses. the masses want healthcare reform. if you want to have a discussion about this, let's have a debate. neil: i want you to hear them. we will have more after this. discover new seafood creations...

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if we pre-qualify you for a new power chair or scooter and your claim isn't approved, the scooter store will give you your power chair or scooter free. that's our guarantee. they were so helpful and nice. they filed all the paperwork, and medicare and my insurance covered the cost. we can work directly with medicare or with your insurance company. we can even help with financing. if there's a way, we'll find it! so don't wait any longer, call the scooter store today. neil: i am sorry for cutting him off.

hopefully, we will get him back. [captioning made possible by fox news channel] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- i have been to teaparties some of these protests and town meetings. these are just average people. here's your check. now hide it. to sandra smith on what goldman sachs employees are doing right now. hello, sandra. >> no big-ticket item, no opera -- no high-profile purchases. telling his employees to keep a low profile. "the new york post" is telling his top staff to avoid fleshy spending. in light of the billions in bailout money that banks, including goldman sacks have received from the government, he is cautioning staff about the of lavish spending, but is now stepping up his campaign. even ordering senior managers to

dampen expectations about year- end bonuses. this despite the company raking in that $2.3 billion second quarter profit. one executive telling "the new york post," this is a sensitive time and he wants to make sure that we are not being seen living high on the hog. we have spoken with goldman sachs and they have declined to comment on the report. neil: there is no better guy to say. donald trump says that we should be celebrating wealth in america and wonders why we seem to be attacking it. it is good to have you back. it is weird, isn't it? all the sudden, we're ashamed of doing ok. >> the world is a different place. at the same time, you have to pay to get the best people. neil: the message that we're sending to a lot of people is that orange hair -- a show of

wealth does not have its time and place. you are about wealth. you are a wealthy guy. are you going to rein things in? >> i do not think of myself as being someone who really shows wealth. i get a lot of people through that education and doctor's bills. we do a good job. i do not think of myself as a show week i. we work hard at the trump organization. neil: do you think it is the open season on rich people? to charge surtaxes on top of surtaxes -- i know that the rich need no lobbying. you seem to need a little bit of pr. >> it is open season. it is a mess in terms of what is going on. maybe for good reason. i think it will straighten out and ultimately, people are going

to be rich. you want to live well. i do not think they are going to take that away. neil: do you worry that this gets to be almost like the great gatsby, where people are low- key, where they do not go to your designer golf courses and they do it the site -- despite themselves. >> there is a movement in that direction. it will change. as things get a little bit better, it could change a little bit more. i can we have to stop talking about people not going to certain types of facilities because those facilities, whether they are resorts or whatever they may be, they employ millions of american people we have to stop that kind of thinking. it has been very bad. it will change. neil: there are obviously going to cheaper locations. i'm wondering whether you would rethink setting up some facilities in the pokonos.

>> when enough people rethink it, the government starts thinking, we have to get those people back. let's give an incentive to build. it runs in cycles and it will change. bill: you think that this surtax for guys like you is going to put a cooler on it? >> eventually, we will say, what are we working for? there is not an incentive. we are not going to take the risk. we're not going to take the risks. we're going to sit back home and relax. when that starts happening, they will again start taking the taxes off. neil: you are comfortable with who you are uncomfortable being a rich guy. there are some people who are not comfortable in their skin. they have a bit of this class warfare nonsense. >> the world has all different

types of people. you have yourself, me, lots of different ways of handling things. i'm very comfortable with what i do. i employ thousands and thousands of people who are very happily employed. they are out raising families and doing very well. i am very proud of that. neil: donald trump, it is always good to talk to you. is washington about to make a clunker out of the constitution? you want to reduce the carbon footprint? maybe make a few were little footprints. the fall of next.

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call now or go to lifelock.com. ♪ neil: it may be strapped for cash, but the clunker program is still stalled in the senate. who really need to the senate? you say that there are ways around this. >> absolutely. if the senate goes on recess without appropriating the $2 billion, which is what the administration has been pushing for, while they are on recess, there is nothing to keep the administration from going into that stimulus program. neil: how much is left of that? >> nobody even knows. nobody knows if the full $1 billion has been spent. you can't get a firm answer

for how many applications have been processed at what cost. we may not get that $2 billion through the senate. obama is sitting there in the late part of the summer saying, at least i got some billions in that tarp program, which congress actually appropriated back to the executive power. here is what bothers me now. the three separate branches of government -- we have them separate for a reason. it is the president who has to declare war. it is the congress that appropriates the money for that war. see what i'm saying? there is a clear separation. hear, if the senate does not pass that bill and next couple of days, there is still all of that tarp money. neil: even if they do not use the tarp money, bob corker says that i am ok if you get this from the stimulus package, which

is different from the intentions. you could just rewrite the rules. i guess if you are the guys writing the rules in the first place. >> i hate to be the naysayer, but the mandate is so broad. it was supposed to be for these toxic assets. we have seen them pay for credit in a million other things than what it was actually intended. why would this be different from anything else? neil: it is relatively cheap. at $2 billion, it is small. i have actually heard this from democrats saying, it is $2 billion. >> just send a couple million dollars mine way if it does not mean that much. bill: the clunker program giving auto sales and left. did you know that ford is the only u.s. automaker not to take the bailout cash, but it is

getting the most bang for the book? rounding off the top five, foreign cars. >> it is really weird if the plan was to help the u.s. auto industry, the two companies that got all the taxpayer money are not really making out too well in this thing. they really tried to stack the deck for general motors. they had 74 vehicles that were eligible to be bought. 53 were trucks. talk about fuel-efficient, right? you could have taken a truck that got 40 miles per gallon in a huge one. it was one of those fine print things. almost everything that general motors through up there, they said, let's try to get everything in there. ford has shown why it did not take bailout money. it has cars that people want. neil: if you do not get fox

business, get it. they are a little bit slow today. one of the things that you raised is that you will get the results from this. it will spur sales. you are going to be sparing them from sales that would come anyway. what do you mean by that? >> there is pent-up demand, just like there is pent-up demand for homes. if you have people who have been waiting and waiting and all of a sudden, you give them $4,500, you are going to get them out there. we have seen this sort of thing before. it is a huge incentive. neil: if it is matched by the car maker, that is $9,000. >we thought this government entities had all the edge because of the deep pockets of uncle sam behind them. >> they still have to come up with cars that people want.

everyone lost market share. general motors lost all lot of market share. so did chrysler. i do not know what is going to happen here. obviously, ford has done a great job. this is another program that took taxpayer money, probably miss use it. neil: it is only $2 billion. >> aig got $180 billion. people are upset about this. isn't it funny that one of the things that the people behind this bill are touting his that a lot of people now have a new car. they also have new monthly payments. it sounds like the housing crisis starts. you had a guy who did not really think about it in all of a sudden, he has car payments for the next 36 months. bill: way to go, charles.

he is the star of fbn. you do not sleep, do you? >> not much. neil: for get cash for clunkers, you want to save the planet? have your kids. who is saying that?

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insurance covered it all. call the scooter store for free information today. neil: a fox news alert. the numbers are in. consumer spending is up. it is where it is up, where we are shopping that is the real story. >> we are spending a little bit more, but we still want our deals. it is the thrift shops and discount stores that are doing well. officials i'm good will say that spending is up 30% and shows no sign of slowing. they're opening new stores and expecting a major surge this august. wal-mart, ross, and t.j. mats are expecting to see their sales gain.

the national retail federation is predicting school sales will drop 8% from last year. if each family spends the average $549 on supplies, they will get more bang from their buck. for example, i picked out a pink backpack for you. it only costs $15 there. the sales price at a department store is between $35 and 7 $5. everything seems to be on sale, especially clothing. the consumer has the upper hand. we're going to have to see how this one turns out. neil: thank you very much. you want to help save the environment? first, have fewer kids. there is a new study saying that if you want to reduce your

carbon footprint, stop creating more footprints. my next guest thinks that this is pretty kooky. i thought this was a joke at first. it is not. >> this is an actual study that statisticians at the oregon state university conducted. they found that for every extra child you have, you contribute more than 9000 metric tons of carbon emissions toward your carbon legacy. i think this is kind of a guilt trip. they are saying if you have kids, you have this huge carbon legacy and no amount of recycling or hybrid driving or fluorescent light bulb using things that you do can ever offset that. it is kind of alarming. neil: do they apply the same lecture to those in india or china where the populations are running at four times? >> there is actually a little tidbit in the study that says it is much more important for a u.s. man or woman to have fewer

children because american children use a lot more resources and children in developing countries. neil: if you create more people in those developing countries, they get to be developed. meanwhile, we are hunkering down and there are fewer of us to be a gas station attendants. before you know it, we have a big problem. >> this is not a new idea. this is something that keeps popping up. this is like the whole population bomb theory. people were asking questions during the hearing saying if you really believed that. they talk about really wacky things like sterilizing drinking water, for example. when you ask these scientists or people in this community, why would you do this, they say, we're not advocating any kind of law. we're scientists. we think about this. that is what the white house told me.

neil: on the flip side, it would not surprise me fewer people and destroying less of the planet on a per-capita basis. does make sense to put it in such frank terms. >> maybe they should do more research about how many resources we are wasting under the cash for clunkers program. ba-zing! neil: there is a memorandum to the same at all fox news anchors should stop reproducing immediately. by the way, her comment on the of cash for clunkers program , it was not supposed to be good for the environment, right? my next guest says that we need to junk it right now.

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neil: keeps a the clunkers, scrap the program. they say that there is still no guarantee that older cars will even be replaced by fuel- efficient ones. my next guest says that there are actually right. is there any way to prove this or hold autodialers accountable for this? >> i do know for a fact a couple dealers i spoke to will take out catalytic converters and the air bags or maybe they will take the good stuff out. neil: this is how a car is destroyed, as i understand. what do they do? what happens?

>> the first parterres my heart out. they put sodium silicate into the engine and run it until it becomes a piece of junk. it wrecks the engine. it means that it has no resale value. neil: does that pollute? >> it creates landfill. what are you going to do with an engine that is full of sodium silicate? you have parts that cannot be used. you are going to have to buy something new or buy something from a car that has already been in the yard. you have 10 fluids that include air conditioning refrigerant. you have all of the other fluids in that car. it is costing the recyclers about $200 to detoxify the cars before they can be either scrapped or used as landfill.

neil: they are allowing for all of this. it is still saving the environment in the long term taking these things off the road and sparing us another few years of polluting. >> the facts are -- we do these checks to prove that even able with new cars do not maintain their vehicles for the most part. about 90% of cars on the road have something wrong with them. the best thing is, how many people do you know with check engine lights that are still driving around? neil: you are saying that this is much ado about nothing. on the surface, it is a start, right? the goal is to get the bigger polluters off the road. this is a step. it is a step in the right

direction. what do you say? >> i would rather see people take care of their existing cars. neil: they are not doing that, right? >> we have been educating in for 20 years. bill: the bottom line is, we do not do it, so the government is doing this. >> now we have the other side. we never think about the fact that when the batteries go bad in a hybrid car, what are you going to do with them? we really look at a bigger issue. when we find great solutions like hydrogen, that is when the government decides to go to something else. i think we need to follow through on one direction. let's go back to electric cars and pick a direction and stop wasting time and especially wising our taxpayer dollars. neil: was your rant against this manufacturer? did somebody put you out to say

what you are telling me now? >> no one pays me. neil: a guy in sunglasses comes to your door and -- >always fun having you. thank you very much. >> thank you. neil: 11 man's crusade is another man's lark. .

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you can walk with a purpose to end alzheimer's...

by joining us for memory walk. [ man ] you invite three people. [ woman ] and they'll invite three people. and before you know it, you have a team. more than 5 million americans... may not be able to stop the progression of alzheimer's. but we can. step up. move a nation to end alzheimer's. start a team today. go to alz.org. neil: all right. so when is a a crusader a crusader and when is he just a clown? i guess it depends on when he is judging. "the new york times" says loin blankfein is a crusader. he was a relentless crusader at that. this journal turned his needless death into a personal mission to avoid fatigue by the doctors and deserves being called a a

crusader. sydney is a crusader because of the personal agenda that "the new york times" found worthy. jack kemp is not because of a personal agenda that the new york times and others in the media did not find worthy. when jack died he wasn't called a crusader. he was all but called a cook. at least he was consistently called an amiable one, described as an advocate to supply side economics an later proved unreliable. sydney is a crusader and jack is not. last time i checked, we cannot pick and choose our crusaders or our crusade. either you crusade for a cause or you do not. who are we are or anyone else to editorialize on the crusades? i think sydney was a crusader who did a lot of good. i also think jack was a crusader who did a lot of good. crusaders shouldn't be defined by their cause or party. the media can't pick and choose who it likes more. i know, this is a silly thing, but i thought it was an important thing, just like fair and balanced is deemed wrong if

it dares to say big government is bad, but fair and balanceed is right if it says that big government is good and evil tax cuts are bad. you got my point. you can't pick and choose your crusade or your crusaders, just that they made a difference, whether you like them or not. speaking of which, apparently a lot of you do not like this idea that some of the protesting on this healthcare thing have been manufactured to do so, one person telling me this chris guy, i would like to manufacture a knuckle sandwich. sheila on this, short and sweet, heap nuts, you're nuts too, but he is nuttier. maury cox says i'm one of those manufactured protestors and right now i'm manufacturing major agileness. that means i'm pissed. buil, i hate you as an an anchor